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Friday, 17 March 2006

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FE News

Hi I was really interested in your recent article.

Why not check out a UK based Further Education website, who are particularly focused on Work Based Learning: www.fenews.co.uk

Or if any of your friends or colleagues are interested in FE or WBL career in the UK check out www.fecareers.co.uk

Keep up the posts.

Gavin

Dr. Bob Abell

Will,

Good meeting you in Boston recently.

I believe I mentioned at that time some results obtained by a client measuring post-test and retention-test gains - which for 70% of the trainees followed your second graph, or at least a somewhat flattened version of it. (See http://www.automatedlearning.com/customers/analysis.cfm)

Realistically, the logistics in most of our client sites would not facilitate a delayed Level 2.

But if results on a test taken immediately following instruction correlate highly with subsequent retention tests (including a level 2 taken two weeks after the training event) then it would seem the result is neither dangerous nor misleading. If the correlation exists, then we should have some confidence in the immediate test results. So I guess I question if the problem with an immediate assessment is as serious as you imply, provided that one has confidence that he is dealing appropriately with transferable skills.

If that correlation does not exist, then there seem to be at least three possible explanations.

(1) The apparent knowledge is deliberately not reinforced in the workplace. (We might not, for example, generate emergencies and accidents in order to reinforce emergency response training. Here we assume the forgetting will occur, and schedule refreshers or recertification on a regular basis.)

(2) The testing is not reflective of true workplace skills in the first place.

(3) The instruction was very "forgettable", focussing on short term memory and possibly lacking appropriate structure. Much of the industrial training I see still relies on a "just tell them what to do" approach rather than focussing on real depth of understanding.

By delaying the Level 2 test for a couple of weeks, one is able to identify the retention and possible transfer effect. This is good, because you can identify the ineffective and non-transfer training, and your results should be reflected in job performance.

But this seems to me to be compensation for less than ideal teaching or testing, and can significantly impact on training logistics.

Best regard,
Bob.

Will Thalheimer

Thanks Bob. Good comments.

I think we're basically in agreement. I'm interested in your comment about the correlation between an immediate test and a delayed test. I'll have to think more deeply about this, but it occurs to me that maybe such a correlation is not what we're aiming for, per se. A positive correlation would mean that everyone who did well on the immediate test would also do well on the delayed test, and everyone who did poorly on the immediate test would also do poorly on the delayed test. While we may want the good performers to remain good, we don't really want the bad performers to remain bad.

Although, the comparison might be apples to oranges, the correlations comparing Level 2 and Level 3 metrics typically show very low correlations. For example, a meta-analysis of a number of published studies found an r of only .12 between Level 2 and 3 (where .29 or below is considered a weak relationship). The study citation is: Alliger, Tannenbaum, Bennett, Traver, & Shotland (1997).
A meta-analysis of the relations among training criteria.
Personnel Psychology, 50, 341-357.

Bottom Line: It's complicated.

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I think the industrial training I see still relies on a "just tell them what to do" approach rather than focussing on real depth of understanding.

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This is good, because you can identify the ineffective and non-transfer training, and your results should be reflected in job performance.

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It is the first use of assessments that I am concerned with in this article.

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Well its provided that one has confidence that he is dealing appropriately with transferable skills.

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If the learners' level of retrieval deteriorates, then we can be fairly certain that the learning event did not prevent forgetting and/or was probably not targeted at real work skills.

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Really i think this does not mean that assessments used for the purpose of aiding retrieval..

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I think if we test learners in the training room or while they're still at their desks using an e-learning program, we're priming them for a level of success they won't attain when they're out of that learning situation and back on the job.

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I think if we test learners in the training room or while they're still at their desks using an e-learning program, we're priming them for a level of success they won't attain when they're out of that learning situation and back on the job.

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It assumes that the cues that trigger retrieval will be similar to those that will trigger their thinking and performance on the job.

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I will argue that Level 2 Assessments given for the purpose of evaluating the success or failure of a learning intervention are dangerous if given immediately after the learning.

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We can measure learners immediately after they learn, we can accounted for the learning part of the retrieval equation, but we've ignored forgetting all together.

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it may be useful to use them in conjunction with a later Level 2 Assessment to determine what is happening to the learning after the learners get back to the job.

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It also assumes that the cues that trigger retrieval will be similar to those that will trigger their thinking and performance on the job. It is true that most current Level 2 Assessments don't meet these criteria, but they should.

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Level 2 Assessments may be useful to use them in conjunction with a later Level 2 Assessment to determine what is happening to the learning after the learners get back to the job.

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Analysis is very accurate in those situations when learners forget much of what they learn as they move from learning events back to their jobs.

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I agree with your 3rd one graph that if anyone starts work while studies then definitely he has forget old topics..

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Its very true and I feel it also that your experience and concepts become strong with working,because what you learn that'll implement also at working place...

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I think its not the proper way to give immediately Level 2 Assessments,its a poor tools to use in measuring an individual's performance..

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Its a best way to give presentation for something use graphs and above mention all graphs are perfect with different-different situations.Level 2 assessment is good way to clear all things...

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I think its not possible to do learning with earning,do one thing either learning or earning,rest are just examples nothing more,level 2 experiment is not complete wrong...

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I think we learn in proper way with honesty they how can we forget all these things and learning with working is the best option to learn something in well manner....

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Its a best option when learning and earning are doing together,students can implement their studies in working which gives them good benefit..

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Stage of learning is very important in students life,don't focus on another activities because you can't make balance on two different vehicle,accident we'll be happen..

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Its a human behavior that,if student only learn something and don't implement so they strat forgetting..

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Only learning is onlu useful in schools but when youths are in college then it useless and I think education shpuld be like this learning at working place is best option to understand learning...

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I believe in learning at workplace because it's a very best option to learn something and impact of implementation of same,so we get more appropriate results and understand the value of that concern topic..

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It is entirely understandable that Sage's competitors do not want the deadline extended, as they hope to win customers from Sage. But why should accountancy practices and businesses who use Sage software be penalised.

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A positive correlation would mean that everyone who did well on the immediate test would also do well on the delayed test, and everyone who did poorly on the immediate test would also do poorly on the delayed test.

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Its a great idea to describe something through graphs and I like very much your concept,but my thought about your blog is that all situation are correct and its depend on person to person...

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Its a best tools to use in measuring an individual's performance best way to give immediately Level 2 Assessments.

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We can accounted for the learning part of the retrieval equation, but we've ignored forgetting all together.

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I think students have to do only one thing at one time other wise thry will confuse and making mistake which make laid down their confidence level..

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I think students have to do only one thing at one time other wise thry will confuse and making mistake which make laid down their confidence level..

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I guess I question if the problem with an immediate assessment is as serious as you imply, provided that one has confidence that he is dealing appropriately with transferable skills.

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Well assessment itself has many meanings...Assessment is often equated and confused with evaluation or can be used to determine what a student knows or can do,while evaluation is used to determine the worth or value of a course or program.Thanks

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I like your stuff its well but I think there are so many reasons of failure and success,here you mentioned some them very well but some are you missed..

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I agree that Real learning interventions often generate both types of results. Learners utilize some of what they've learned back on the job---facilitating their memory; but the rest of what they learned is not used and so is forgotten.

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Retrieval = Learning - Forgetting. I really like the formula which you have posted. amazing post. thanks for sharing.

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It is entirely understandable that Sage's competitors do not want the deadline extended, as they hope to win customers from Sage.

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I will argue that Level 2 Assessments given for the purpose of evaluating the success or failure of a learning intervention are more dangerous.

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Well Assessments are not always good predictors of learning.Learners may give a course a high score but not remember what they learned..I like your stuff its well but I think there are so many reasons of failure and success

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A delay could result in unforeseen outcomes for those firms that surged ahead with preparation.

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This article is very good .It is providing great knowledge to us,how to get further education online.

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It would be nice to think that, a possible delay would draw a line under the affair and they could really move on!

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Well I go through this blog and found it very informative and interesting..It should be clear that Level 2 Assessments delivered immediately after the learning are virtually impossible to interpret..thanks

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I'll have to think more deeply about this..I'm interested in your comment about the correlation between an immediate test and a delayed test.

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